J. G. Thirlwell (a.k.a. Foetus): The My Big, Black Cock Flashback Interview
J.G. Thirlwell of Foetus shows us the goods, circa 1991 at New York’s Limelight.
(Photo Credit: Scott Crawford)
In the second installment of our Flashback Interview series, MBBC staffer justj0hn provides us with an interview with J. G. Thirlwell, of Foetus/Wiseblood/Steroid Maximus/Manorexia fame that he and his compatriot Michele (last name omitted to protect the innocent) conducted in 2001 for the now-in-limbo Faqt Magazine. Thanks to both justj0hn and Faqt for allowing us to bring this one back for public consumption.
As for Ma Thirlwell’s baby boy Jimmy, according to his web site, there will be a new Foetus album available in 2004, and it seems as if he’s been keeping busy in the meantime. I highly recommend the Foetus site, as it’s chock full of information.
In addition, if y’all are interested, I may eventually be persuaded to post yet another interview with Mr. Thirlwell that I did for Propaganda back in the dark ages of 1991 or so as a separate Flashback Interview, but that probably won’t be posted for a while.
And now, J.G. Thirlwell: The My Big, Black Cock Flashback Interview.
2001: For whatever reason, Hoboken was a labyrinth of orange dayglo street cones,
directional cops on foot, non-functional traffic lights and detour signs, causing us to
advance through the town at a slug’s pace. We were 10 minutes beyond being on
time at that point.
Our destination: Maxwell’s, not only to see Foetus perform but to interview the man
responsible for 2 decades worth of nihilistic noize, Jim Thirlwell. I’m a late bloomer
with Foetus. I’ve only been a fan for 10 out of the 20 years he’s been throwing glass,
granite, steele girders, grenades and an unmeasured amount of vitriol into his sonic
blender. There were a few instances, I’m sure, during the interview where he could
have easily thrown me in as well due to my questioning but such was not the case.
He was as personable as he was informative and this is how it went…
Players: J. G. Thirlwell, Justj0hn and Michele
Justj0hn: The 80’s were bombarded with a barrage of Foetus releases whereas the 90’s were sorely anemic. Why was last decade so barren as far as your musical output?
JGT: I don’t think it was that barren, I mean…The early 90’s I got caught up in touring and then after that I started doing remixes and that started to consume me. My remix life really took off. A couple of things that started that off…EMF, Prong…
Justj0hn: yeah, I remember the EMF remix ["I Believe(Colt 45 Remix)]…
JGT: The Prong thing started an avalanche of work for me because it was the first metal
remix that had been done, you know, and then I was the “goto guy” for that…I was
riding along quite nicely on that. I had done the Steroid Maximus stuff which had come
out around then…and then I started writing new material, I had a bunch of new stuff
for “GASH” and then I started talking with labels. It took about a year to negotiate the
deal with Sony and then throw that together and then the Sony thing came out.
My releases tend to bottleneck, they build up and they blurt out all at once. All my
releases come out in clumps. Don’t know if you’ve noticed. But then the Sony thing
happened and that sorta ended…in tears.
Justj0hn: Was that only a one album deal?
JGT: It was a 2 album deal but they uhmmm…It came down to business affairs pretty soon after, like about a week after “GASH” had come out that they weren’t going to promote the 2nd album and you know, there’s some good people at Sony but they pretty much had the rug pulled out from under me, the wheels got set in motion to kinda extricate me from the deal pretty much before it had even been given a chance. That was just not a good way to run things, you know? So…everything sorta came ’round and it was the Portrait of Dorian Grey in reverse, everything came ’round and bit me in the ass and I had to crawl out of that wreckage. It was like everything predicted came true. I’ve been working on new material for a couple of years hence this new outpouring of stuff. I have about 3 albums coming out this year. That’s the way it happens sometimes.
Justj0hn: How would you describe, you personal words, your latest offering?
JGT: I don’t feel I need to describe it. I mean, I think that’s your job.
Justj0hn: It’s a mind pureeing masterpiece. The impending remix album “BLOW” is material from… “FLOW”, due Sept…Is this the first time you’ve allowed other talents to deconstruct and reshape your material?
JGT: It’s the first time I actually requested it. Yeah, the results are amazing. I’m just
finishing it off right now actually. I finished working on the sleeve last night and
uhmmm…it’s really down to the wire, but yeah, it’s coming out in Sept. and it’s
really exciting. It’s an amazing album.
Justj0hn: Yeah, I’m really looking forward to that one.
JGT: It’s interesting the way people took it, the interpreters took it. I mean…everyone
has been most gracious and really taken it to interesting places and at first I was
worried it was all a bit dark but it’s all down to the sequencing and I think it’s
quite stunning.
Justj0hn: You have FM Einheit on it…
JGT: He might not be on there actually. There’s a bevy of other people: PanSonic,
Amon Tobin, DJ Food, Kid 606, Panacea, Sean Beavan , Charlie Clouser, Franz Treichler from the Young Gods, Ursula 1000, uhmm…I might be skipping some people…Me…myself…
Justj0hn: Do you have any intentions of dipping into your extensive back catalogue for
future remix projects…albums?
JGT: Uhmmm…no, not really, I mean…it would be interesting to do but…I don’t own
the rights to that stuff and I feel reticent to make money for labels that don’t
pay me royalties, you know. A lot of people have sent me remixes that they’ve done
unsolicited with varying results.
Justj0hn: Have you ever been approached to do the soundtrack for a major motion picture?
JGT: No, not a major motion picture. I’ve spoken to people about soundtrack work. That’s
something you have to like…that’s a full time job just pursuing that. Filmwork is
very much a committee type thing and I’m more inclined to wanna have someone make a
film around my music, the other way around at this point…I mean, right this
second. It’s not to say in a couple of weeks I’ll change my mind. I did the soundtrack
to one film which is a cross between scoring and music supervising for the film
version of the Atrocity Exhibition by JG Ballard and that’s coming out on DVD. It’s
a commentary on JG Ballard.
I’m really interested in getting songs placed at this point than just actively
pursuing soundtracks to the exclusion of everything else. I had just finished another
instrumental album under the name Manorexia and I will be performing that live next
year at UCLA as part of a contemporary composers series and that’s kinda like a
horror movie soundtrack, you know…it’s quite terrifying.
Justj0hn: Yeah, I was gonna ask you what’s going to distinguish Manorexia musically from
Steroid Maximus…
JGT: Well…there’s quite a few different distinctions. I’m about more than halfway
through the new Steroid Maximus album which I will probably finish when I’m done with
this tour…try to finish, and that’s increasingly become influenced by DJ OTEFSU
which is the name I DJ under and I think it’s really soaked through into that.
Manorexia has had some different criteria on it from the very start. It sorta
started live as an ambient album that didn’t finish live like that. 14 pieces that
kind of crossfade into eachother but I wanted to do something where it wasn’t so
meticulously crafted as Steroid Maximus or Foetus is. It’s something where I was
doing it in a more instinctive painterly way and not second guessing what I was doing
because I think I’m at the point where I’ve done it enough, that the decisions that I
make without agonizing over it too much aren’t really gonna suck because I know
I want and so…that was one of the criteria. The other was having a spatial and
repetitive quality to it instead of cramming it with so much detail and as a result
let the ear and the brain fill in a lot of the blanks and…it really works.
Justj0hn: How did DJ OTEFSU come about?
JGT: I just got asked to DJ at a friends art opening and I dug it. I started it much
more experimental than what I do now but it’s basically a way to flex my record
collection and it creates an atmosphere. I mean, there’s an OTEFSU sound that I go
for and I depart from it. There’s definitely an atmosphere it creates where life kinda
stops in 1975. There’s a lot of spy/crime/cop show elements.
Justj0hn: I missed the The The show I had found out you DJ’d at and I regret it. You’ve
tapped into many genres of music for your art: blues, jazz, lounge, swing, surf, etc…
to create some of the most original noise ever etched on wax…You’ve even utilized an
orchestra on your YORK album that featured Lydia Lunch…
JGT: Well…that wasn’t a real orchestra.
Justj0hn: It wasn’t?
JGT: No, The Foetus Symphony Orchestra.
Michele: [laughs]
Justj0hn: [makes buzzer noise]
Michele: Thanks for playing John.
Justj0hn: Ahh, well…fooled me.
JGT: Well, it was a 9 piece band. I called them an orchestra because it had a bunch of
instruments. It was a bit of a joke to call them the Foetus Symphony Orchestra. It
wasn’t really an orchestra. I’m getting closer to that with Manorexia where I’m
actually going to do it…it will be realized live with a string section, live
percussion, electronics…stuff like that.
Justj0hn: Blunder on my part. Did you ever consider getting a bunch of incredible, over the top, extreme voices together and conducting a…cacophonous cantata? Like…”Foetus: The Opera”?
JGT: Uhmmm…no, I have not considered that. Maybe it’s a good idea. I have recently
sorta finished shouting choir…who I enjoy…
Justj0hn: Shouting choir?
JGT: Ya, I don’t envision wrangling a whole lotta people together under one roof. The
management…I just don’t have the tolerance for that. Hard enough being by myself
let alone with other people.
Justj0hn: Say I have a piece of my own music I wanted to send through the Foetus mill…
uhmmm…mulched and amplified by the hands of Jim Thirlwell. What sorta steps would
I have to take?
JGT: Uhmmm…send it to the PO box and it will probably end up on a big pile.
Justj0hn: I bet!
JGT: Which is not to say I might not listen to it. Some people don’t take unsolicited
music and I understand why ‘cuz down the line…the impact of it…you know…but…I
do listen to some stuff I get sent.
Justj0hn: You probably get quite a bit…
JGT: No, not as much as you might think.
Justj0hn: Oh, I’m gonna touch on the past a little bit. It struck me one day listening to
Calamity Crush that it bears a slight resemblance to Herbie Hancock’s mega instrumental dance hit “Rockit”…did you ever notice this?
JGT: Well, that was kind of a joke on “Rockit” a bit but it was also “Renegades Of Funk” by
Afrika Bambaata…which was a bit more of a homage to that but it was put through my
mangler, I mean…and it was kind of a conscious thing to do a riff like that…
totally conscious…although it was kinda like my early experiments with sampling.
What I’ve been doing up until then was…the way I was creating stuff was manipulating
sounds with pause buttons, effects…just anything that made an interesting noise and
when sampling technology started to become accessible, there was a way to organize
what I’ve been doing with tape loops and stuff anyway and some of the first messing
around with samples was around about then when I was using an AMS delay which you
could lock sounds into and trigger them and that’s how I got all the drum sounds on
that…it’s like an 808 drum machine with all the sounds triggered and then messed
around with and stuff like that. That’s how I got these huge drum sounds so it was
an exercise in that. And it’s interesting because it still kinda sounds, particularly
the b-side, sounds kinda fresh now in an old school way.
Justj0hn: Do you utilize a computer more nowadays…for your work?
JGT: Yeah.
Justj0hn: Is there any software that your using you want to rant and rave about?
JGT: Well, you know…I have one foot in the stone-age and one foot in the space-age.
I still have an Atari 1040 that I really like which I run creative software on and
it’s great. A lot of people still swear by that too but I also have a G4 with Logic
and I’ve been getting a lot of cool stuff. In Native Instruments. a friend of mine
there has been turning me onto stuff which I had just sorta messed around with and
I just got this device, Reaktor I think it’s called, which I haven’t even gotten into
yet but I know it does amazing things and some other stuff, you know…you can spend
your entire life trying to keep up and trying to learn and get deep into it ‘cuz
some of the programs are so fucking deep and I get deeper into them instinctively.
I mean, I can go back to my 1040 because I get so pissed off troubleshooting other
things, you know, but…..I always want to create. I just don’t want to just keep
up with stuff. I think other people keep up with stuff without actually doing
anything….
Justj0hn: Getting kinda lazy with it and just…
JGT: Well, not lazy…I mean, they’re really studious about knowing every advancement of
every different version that comes out. There’s a point where you gotta say OK, I
wanna actually use it for something. I tend to use things.
Justj0hn: Last year I had seen you…[turns to Michele]…was Neubauten last year?
Michele: I don’t remember! [laughs] Uhmm…..yes.
Justj0hn: I saw you in the audience…I didn’t want to be one of the many people talking
to you during their performance. What did you think of their show?
JGT: Was that Irving Plaza?
Justj0hn: Yes.
JGT: I thought they were good. It was good.
Justj0hn: I was amazed…that was my second time seeing them. First time I was sold.
Michele: I had a big crush on Blixa.
JGT: Really?
Michele: I don’t know why…..big crush.
JGT: You know he’s moved to San Francisco?
Justj0hn: Is that where’s he’s living now?
Michele: Oh, has he? He’s getting a tan.
Justj0hn: What was your involvement in the releases of a few early Neubauten albums?
JGT: Uhmmm…..well, I saw them play live in Berlin in like ‘82…and I was just amazed.
They were so good. I actually had their early singles. I used to work for Virgin and
I would get…well, I was really into what was going on in Germany at the time…
obscure, well…not necessarily obscure but just independent seven inches that were
coming out…there was a lot of cool stuff on different labels, Zick Zack and uhmm…
I don’t remember the names of the other labels. Ofcourse I had access to all that stuff
and so I kinda knew who they were and then I saw them play live at this festival in
about ‘82 and I was blown away. I talked to them about getting…if they would be
interested in getting their stuff released in the UK and they were like, “Ya.”
At that point I had a relationship with Rough Trade who were distributing Foetus stuff
and I went to them with the proposal of putting together a subsidiary label of
Self Immolation with the purpose of putting out Einsturzende Neubauten starting with,
and it was called Hardt records, and I had stationary made and everything like that
and…so, the first release was going to be Strategies Against Architecture Volume
I. So they were assembling that and I was gonna put the money I had made with “ACHE”
into the production of that album and then around that time I was being courted by
Some Bizarre. So they wanted to sign me so I said “Well,…”, I had spoken to
Neubauten about it and decided “Well, if you want to sign me then you gotta sign
Neubauten too…..”, which they did…much to everyone’s regret. So the first
release was gonna be Strategies Against Architecture Volume I and then Stevo
decided to do new material, he didn’t want to do a retrospective, so then we ended
up taking it to Mute. So that’s how that came about.
Justj0hn: Someone had made a vague reference to it and they just really didn’t elaborate,
so…I just to know…..
JGT: We played together over the years and kept in touch and stuff but, they always…
what they were doing then is just like…apart from what they were doing sonically
but like…emotionally and intellectually…it was just amazing.
Justj0hn: Tribute albums have been in vogue for the past few years. Would you be flattered or disgusted if a bunch of uber-gothic/Casio cookie cutter industrial bands covered
your work for just such a thing?
JGT: Uhmmmm…
Justj0hn: I’m not citing any labels.
Michele: Ya…no labels.
Justj0hn: I guess it would depend on the results…
JGT: You make it sound so negative…
Michele: [laughs]
Justj0hn: I know…..I’m sorry.
JGT: I’m flattered when people cover my material so I guess I would be curious to hear
it but if they were like as you described…then indeed I would have no interest in it.
Michele: That’s ‘cuz they’re all so BAD…
Justj0hn: There’s a few exceptions…
Michele: Yeah, sure.
Justj0hn: How did you land the role as “The Satan Guy” on Ann Magnuson’s ‘96 album “The Luv Show”?
JGT: I think it’s was ‘cuz how someone referred to me as “The Satan Guy”, like…”Do you
know Jim Thirlwell?”, or whatever…
Justj0hn: And immediately associated you with the devil?
JGT: “Oh yeah…that Satan guy, yeah.”…so, I relayed that story to her and she loved it.
That’s how I wound up being “That Satan Guy”. We were working on some material
together around about then, actually the song “Heuldoch 7B” that’s on “FLOW” I originally
wrote for her and she had some vocals on it and then she ended up not liking her
vocal take so I took the back-track and radically reworked it and turned it into what
it is now.
Justj0hn: I remember when I had originally read about it years ago…the ad was kinda
misleading and it made it sound like it was strictly you and her…
JGT: Ahh…..really?
Justj0hn: Yeah.
JGT: I didn’t know anything about that.
Justj0hn: Have you been paying any attention to this electrowave/synth/club resurgence?
Bands like VNV Nation, And One, Apoptygma Berzerk?
JGT: No, don’t know any of it. Is that part of the “New Wave Revival”?
Justj0hn: Yeah, yeah it is. Do You think there’s a new musical revolution gestating within the
Internet?
JGT: I’m not qualified to answer that. I’ve never even downloaded an MP3 in my life.
I wouldn’t know what’s out there. I do think that basically the democratization of
music…if that’s a form of distribution…I don’t particularly think it’s a good
thing…’cuz it’s inevitable, there’s so much crap out there, there’s no way of…
way of filtering.
Justj0hn: No, there really isn’t.
JGT: And I think that as a result, music, which used to be special, has become devalued
just by the sheer amount of it…in it’s omnipresence…everywhere.
And I can understand why the generation that comes up now doesn’t hold it with such
reverence or importance as the previous generations because there are so many other
distractions out there…it’s become wallpaper…it’s been so…been so…
Justj0hn: Diluted?
Michele: It lost the sacredness it once had.
JGT: It’s really so narrowcast by…by, you know, large corporations who are trying to
second guess what people want to hear. Of course it’s always out there to be dug into
but, you know…it’s what is shoved down your throat that is so mediocre to start
with that maybe it takes away the desire to dig deeper into it. When I was growing
up, music was “It” and, uhmm…I guess there’s still people like that, that feel
that way. I still feel that way! High form of art.
Justj0hn: A friend of mine, being a recovering resident, wants to know if there’s any
meaning behind the Niagara Falls reference in the Hammer Falls?
JGT: Uhmmm…I don’t remember what the reference is…in that, about Niagara Falls.
Was probably a play on words. I don’t really remember.
Justj0hn: Did you ever have to deal with a stalker…or sick the authorities on an over-
obsessive fan?
JGT: I’ve kinda had some stalking experience…but I’ve dealt with it by…in private
means as opposed to going to the authorities. Private forms of law enforcement.
Justj0hn: Wow…this whole next section we’ve previously talked about. Uhmmm…any plans on compiling your artwork, lyrics, maybe some stories and poems you’ve written…publishing them?
JGT: No immediate plans to do that. I’m not quite ready to write my eulogy yet. I’m
still writing my legacy. There’s an art show opening at Exit Art in a couple of
weeks…it’s dedicated to LPs, you know, 33 1/3 covers. I have a little installation
in that but…..the stuff is pretty well catalogued on the web site at this point…
and that’s ever growing. I’d like to turn it into a CD-Rom, I’d love to have a book
but most of the artwork I do gets channeled into the sleeves. It’s not like I do a
lot of artwork that doesn’t end up published so it’s all out there and everyone can
own an original. That’s how it was always intended to be made…
Justj0hn: Did you have anything to do with the Internet APB that was sent out on that
girl for ahhh…she was on stage at the Knitting Factory…performing mock
fellatio?
JGT: Oh NO…was nothing to do…nothing about that.
Justj0hn: That was someone else?
JGT: I don’t know who that girl was. There was another APB that went out…on some
other girl…which was semi-successful. Struck me dumb over this…personal
question(?). But…uhhhh…WHAT an IDIOT! Nah, that’s me…I’m the idiot. She’s lovely…..no comment.
Justj0hn: Somehow…I was under the impression…were you ever married to Lydia Lunch?
JGT: We lived together for 7 years.
Justj0hn: Alright…every time it’s brought up it’s like “Oh, they were married…”
Michele: It’s the question every time someone mentions you[in a gruff voice], “He’s
the guy married to Lydia Lunch?”
JGT: So…uhmm…whatever that means…cohabitated. We’re still in touch. We still
talk all the time, close.
Justj0hn: Wow…I’m actually at the end of this. That’s all I got.
Michele: I wanna know something…When you’re sitting at home and you put something on, what do you listen to? Is there anything out there right now…..
JGT: Out there right now?
Michele: I only listen to old stuff…
JGT: Yeah, I listen to a lot of old stuff. I listen to a lot of soundtracks. That’s my
favorite stuff to listen to at the moment and I’ll go through phases we’re I’ll
listen to old rock or electronic stuff or, you know…a lot of the people I invited
to remix me, that’s…I listen to a lot of their stuff. Amon Tobin is one of my
favorites. But ya, I’ve sorta been digging into old soundtracks which is also…
uhmmm…it’s all research into DJ OTEFSU stuff. If I find something that forms
a little cornerstone of a set, a theme or an arc in my set you know, I go for that.
I recently started listening to Mandrill and Marlowe…and bands like that who do
kinda like afro-latino type stuff which is kinda cool. Lots of congos and stuff.
Ya, I’d say the soundtrack stuff is the most dominant at present, but I have pretty diverse tastes.
Justj0hn: How long are you on tour for? This is day one of it, right?
JGT: This goes ’til the 24th of this month…for 3 1/2 weeks and then I’m going out
to LA for DJ OTEFSU and I’m also performing at the Fetish Ball out there…3 songs
with the house band and then come back here to put BLOW into production and then
doing Philly…and 2 nights at the Mercury Lounge.
Justj0hn: That’s right…the Mercury Lounge. I’ll have to be at one of those two…
JGT: September we goto Europe for about 6 weeks and in November I’m mounting a live
performance of “BLOW” in LA and I’m trying to pull together all the people who’ve
remixed me on “BLOW”…for one night.
Justj0hn: Oh really? That should be incredible…
Michele: Do you get a better reception here…or in Europe?
JGT: Ahhh…I don’t remember. Depends on the place, you know. Europe is really good.
I haven’t toured there in a long time so we’ll see how it goes.
Michele: I’m done [laughs].
Justj0hn: I’m spent…uhhmm…we to expect any old material to show up on stage tonight?
JGT: Ya, there are some old songs that have been radically reworked and some old stuff
that I’ve never played before…and then some stuff from “FLOW” and a few that have
never been released as well…so it covers the gamut…you know.
Justj0hn: My first time ever seeing you was last year at the Knitting Factory…that show
was nothing short of incredible.
JGT: Uhhh…well, it’s a similar set…but different members and a couple of different
things.
Justj0hn: What impressed me the most was the drummer…did he also have some kind of…keypad (was trying to say drum-pad panel). He would drum…and use that as well…
blew me away.
JGT: Yeah…same drummer. Vinny Signorelli. He used to be in the Unsane.
Justj0hn: Are you still working with Hahn Rowe?
JGT: Hahn does a violin solo in one of the songs on FLOW so, I guess, yeah. I haven’t
seen him for about a year.
Justj0hn: Alright…I guess I’m done. Thank you very much for the interview.
Michele: Pleasure meeting you.